tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post8501407652544835330..comments2024-03-23T20:52:19.525-06:00Comments on An Alaskan in Yucatán: Language Learning: Why Bother?Marc Olsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-73972134896359659352011-07-30T21:48:30.553-05:002011-07-30T21:48:30.553-05:00Beryl, I agree with you absolutely. I catch some m...Beryl, I agree with you absolutely. I catch some meanings, but still get left in the dark at times by all the slang and wordplay. That's one good reason to keep on learning and to chit-chat every chance you get.<br /><br />I read Diario daily...still haven't gotten into Por Esto. Remind me to ask you some time about it.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-11944293784454547552011-07-30T16:38:16.290-05:002011-07-30T16:38:16.290-05:00The real problem with not speaking any Spanish is ...The real problem with not speaking any Spanish is that you miss all the sly double entendres that float by with almost any transaction in the mercado and the lively conversations of the people at the table next to you at LA68. After many years, I understand some, but not all of these and that's what keeps my quest going. And besides, I'd be lost without the Diario and Por Esto.Beryl Gorbmanhttp://www.gorbman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-65793000764995951072011-07-22T15:18:04.268-05:002011-07-22T15:18:04.268-05:00You are so right, Yucatango. I learn much faster ...You are so right, Yucatango. I learn much faster with the immediate needs, than the obscure structure used by so many language learning approaches. Or even the immediate interests, (as opposed to needs.) And the "mind ones manners" effort you suggest--so very important!! ("Yo quiero" is usually, well, a mistake which does not create a good discourse. ) <br /><br />I've often wished that if I had a teacher who would be able to be at my side as I attempt things like having the plumber install a new faucet, I'd learn so much faster. <br /><br />I've tried a few private instructors, and have only found one who would correct me as I proceed. I like that--for it does mean that some of my continuing errors just MIGHT be changed before becoming further entrenched. I would suggest that a prospective student ask the provider: Will you correct my errors? I'm still convinced that we often learn best in the parent-child model. <br /><br /> But everyone, I'm sure, will not agree. We're all different.Alindehttp://lingobylingo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-50185928314658144012011-07-21T17:26:25.352-05:002011-07-21T17:26:25.352-05:00Yucatango, I agree 100%. Giving a language learner...Yucatango, I agree 100%. Giving a language learners something that they can use and that is practical makes a enormous difference in their success.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-82491307227599363332011-07-21T17:08:54.328-05:002011-07-21T17:08:54.328-05:00I'd be curious to know which approaches are ta...I'd be curious to know which approaches are taken by local Spanish-for-foreigners classes, especially for the very new speakers. <br /><br />I've seen some materials that expat friends were given and have heard a little bit about the classes they take. From that tiny and probably non-representative sample, it seems like the material has been the usual generic Spanish grammar and basic phrases. It has not, apparently, emphasized the stuff that people here would find immediately applicable. <br /><br />For example, "Excuse me, could you help me find a Phillips screwdriver?" is more immediately useful than "Rosa wears a dress every day, but she doesn't always wear a hat." One of the most effective ways to get people to keep learning is to give them highly relevant skills as soon as possible.<br /><br />It would also be great for local instructors or classes to cover manners early on, such as the difference between "yo quiero" and "quisiera."yucatangohttp://yucatango.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-25462593301473559742011-07-19T17:56:10.111-05:002011-07-19T17:56:10.111-05:00Thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion...Thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion. No post on this blog to date has generated such interest.<br /><br />I do think anyone without a disability can gain a sufficient command of Spanish to meet basic needs and have Spanish-speaking friends. The key is to find the right kind of learning environment. My two earlier posts on language learning (label: language learning) give a few other ideas I had about that topic.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-75692869688412416102011-07-19T17:02:36.233-05:002011-07-19T17:02:36.233-05:00Again, I applaud Steven's comments. I remembe...Again, I applaud Steven's comments. I remember taking a course in which I was, admittedly, the least proficient in learning Spanish; but the class-mates were so competitive, with nonverbal "looks," that seemed to say, "You're so slow", that I'd come home angry! I soon quit the class, thinking that there were better venues for me.<br /><br />You, too, Marc are right--even slow progress is worth it.<br /><br />But when one is treated poorly in the process, it does become discouraging. <br /><br />AlindeAlindehttp://lingobylingo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-25011303524330419842011-07-19T15:21:00.811-05:002011-07-19T15:21:00.811-05:00Thanks Marc, for continuing this lively dialogue. ...Thanks Marc, for continuing this lively dialogue. I also want to thank Stephen Fry, for that very interesting analysis! I have to re-read it and think a bit more, but I must say--I've often wondered if I'd have been better in high school Spanish had I not been seated next to my future husband in class! I was much more interested in that seating arrangement than in learning a language I then thought I'd never need, (and I gave up on the husband many years ago!)Alindehttp://lingobylingo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-73958599465151372422011-07-19T14:58:35.037-05:002011-07-19T14:58:35.037-05:00Amen!
I think some adult learners who struggle to...Amen!<br /><br />I think some adult learners who struggle to learn a new language, look at other people's seemingly easy experiences, and then slip into disappointment that they are not learning as quickly. This leads to some helpful conclusions:<br /><br />Keep Learing Spanish! <br />If you are struggling, just realize that some people are pre-programmed to learn it easily and build their skills exponentially, while others just have to persistently plug & chug to make modest progress. <br /><br />Even slow progress is well worth the effort.Steve Fryhttp://yucalandia.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-31384641331861899432011-07-18T21:15:26.702-05:002011-07-18T21:15:26.702-05:00Steve: Thanks for your comments. My main point (to...Steve: Thanks for your comments. My main point (to which I dedicated most of my post) was that there is much to be gained, for people who choose to live in Mexico, by learning some Spanish. As a teacher, I spent many years working with children and young adults with a huge range of abilities. What I discovered was that nearly all, excepting a few with serious disabilities, could gain some level of competence in any subject matter, given motivation, time and adaptations that would allow them to use their particular learning strengths. I think this also holds for older adults. If I made any judgment, it was that foreigners who move to Mexico and live here are missing a huge chunk of living if they don't try to learn some basic Spanish and enjoy all the place has to offer. My opinion is that if they moved here because it's cheap and do not care to interact with their Mexican neighbors (and as I have witnessed in some cases, seriously misunderstand and/or actively disrespect the people and the culture), that's pretty sad. I think most all of them can learn enough Spanish, if they feel like it, to participate and understand a bit about their neighbors and the culture. Again, thanks for reading and contributing all of the interesting information.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-18625693204601966052011-07-18T19:07:35.725-05:002011-07-18T19:07:35.725-05:00Do we expect an electronic's tech to install a...Do we expect an electronic's tech to install and fix plumbing? Look in the plumber's tool kit: pipe wrenches, hole saws, pipe cutters, and a hack saw ( needed for foreign language/plumbing) are necessary to install a toilet or sink, Similarly, the plumber's tools are just not suited to measuring impedences, resistances, or voltages, or for doing fine-work. Yes, the electronics guy and the plumber both have screwdrivers, pliers, and soldering equipment, but pipe soldering skills only nominally transfer to soldering circuit board components, and tiny specialized electronics pliers can't replace big Channelocks. The obverse works similarly: the electronics guy will likely leave lots of leaks in his wake. <br /><br />This crude metaphor desribes how it looks like people have the same brains and same tools, (screwdrivers, pliers, cutters and torches), they really are not equipped to do the same tasks. The language plumber who can intuit where to cut a hole in the wall will have great difficulty learning & doing electronics, and the electronics tech will have to get out his tape measure, pencil, and paper to figure out where to cut.<br /><br />The teen who practiced and learned a foreign language, and then used it (especially in immersion situations) really does have it much much much easier than older learners. Expecting older learners to pick up natural speaking of a foreign language (especially when first attempting after age 50) is sort of like asking a 250 pound 50 year old guy to run sub 4 hour marathons.<br /><br />For those who have the "gift" of languages, imagine trying to step onto the dias and clean & jerk 400 pounds. Maybe after 5 years of hard regular efforts & training, you could do it.<br /><br />I offer these things to encourage, build, and grow more understanding, acceptance, and tolerance between people on the very peculiar issues of learing foreign languages.<br /><br />Overall, a dandy thought provocing and insightful article !<br />-<br />-<br />**Sidelight: I personally think the ongoing physiological re-wiring of the brain until age 26 or 27 much explains why the people we marry at age 20-22 often turn into somewhat different people by age 30. By age 28, we finally have a stable consistent brain platform to work with, and that is the age when we also (coincidentally?) as adults, begin to pick and choose between the "internal rules" that society has given us as to how we should act. With the finally stable platform, between ages 28 and 32 we can identify the key bits of our adult selves, and toss away the "internal rules" that don't fit, which mostly completes these big cycles of change. In other words, we can know someone really well when we & they are age 20-22, but by age 33, we can wake-up and wonder just who is this person laying in bed beside me??? because both you and they changed. (This last stuff is my own personal thesis, and I have no data nor studies to back it up. The other stuff above represents brain development research findings & understandings as of about 2 years ago.)Steve Fryhttp://yucalandia.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-36910851039687460252011-07-18T19:05:40.696-05:002011-07-18T19:05:40.696-05:00Continued from previous post:
The people who were ...Continued from previous post:<br />The people who were fortunate enough to focus some substantial bits of their teenage resources on other languages, built a good physiological brain platform for future foreign language learning and use, and they have that foundation and platform to trot around on the rest of their lives.<br /><br />An Anomoly or Another Consequence of Brain Physiology and Foreign Language Learning: The children who learned a foreign language and spoke it well, before age 11, (particularly those who learned it during the 2-5 year old period of rapid learning & pruning), but who did not actively use the language after age 10, often report not knowing or not speaking the language as adults. These things are not laziness nor lack of will power, just physical limitations.<br /><br />Bright people who did not deeply learn or did not heavily use a foreign language as a teen, can learn one when older, especially in memory-driven tasks like building large vocabularies, and they can have very creative insights into the mechanics of a foreign language, but it will take much greater effort and persistence to make modest gains in actually speaking the language (compare reading skills vs. conversational skills, where reading Spanish can be a snap compared to forming sentences).<br /><br />In my perception, the main article and many of the comments have been sprinkled-with or at least shaded-by or shaped-by some subtle but judgmental comparisons between people who are working with very different basic brain tools and abilities.<br /><br />(Bored? quit reading now. Interested? see next post)Steve Fryhttp://yucalandia.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-17560361998642459352011-07-18T19:02:17.060-05:002011-07-18T19:02:17.060-05:00Physiological brain development effects seem to ex...Physiological brain development effects seem to explain many of your observations about peoples varying abilities and interest in learning a foreign language. In my perception, the main article and many of the comments have been sprinkled-with or at least shaded-by or shaped-by some subtle but judgmental comparisons between people who are working with very different basic brain tools and abilities.<br /><br />There is one key period in life that seriously pre-determines our abilities to learn and speak foreign languages: ages 11 - 15/16. Our brains start significant physical rewiring at around age 11 and do not finish the process until around age 26.** Roughly, during the period between ages 11 and 15, our brains go through an ongoing unique use-it-or-lose-it process, where the person must develop and use a skill, or likely they will "lose it" for life. Whole areas of abilities are grown or pruned-away depending on usage between ages 11 and 15 (mas o meno).. <br /><br />If you were not exposed to foreign languages or learning foreign languages until after age 15 or 16, then the person will likely have real physiological limitations on their ability to pick-up and naturally speak a foreign language. Since important brain re-wiring and development is mostly done by age 27, if someone does not attempt to learn a foreign language by age 28, they will likely have great difficulty learning new languages the rest of their life. <br /><br />There are notable exceptions to this arm-chair analysis of physiological brain development: The brain's dura mater continues to grow well into our 70's, and the numbers of interconnections and cross-linking between internal brain neurons continues well into our 70's, as long as we excercise, stretch, and use our brains.<br /><br />Competing Effects: Physical speed of brain processing slows gradually and continuously after about age 27, but concomitant increases in dura mater thickness & penetration into the brain, and the growth of the brain's internal interconnections (a.k.a. experience and experiences ) balance the losses in raw cognitive processing powers (diminishing calculational speed and fact retrieval speed), giving average people the best combination of processing power and experience/wisdom at roughly age 45. By age 70 - 75, most average people's brain power has diminished noticably. One notable exception to these trends are the active brains of the top 10% of the distribution, who still solve problems and perform on mental tests as well as the top 10% of 20-25 year olds. Bright seniors solve the problems very differently and generally more creatively than 20-somethings, bringing experiential knowledge and creative cross-connections developed over decades, even though their memory retreival times are much longer.<br /><br />These biological facts play heavily into determining what you describe: There are groups of people who just did not develop foreign language skills by age 16, and a number of experts report that they will never become "fluent" in speaking a foreign language.<br />(continued below in next post)Steve Fryhttp://yucalandia.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-78989534947736831422011-07-09T12:58:32.784-05:002011-07-09T12:58:32.784-05:00I totally agree. Even though my Spanish is still h...I totally agree. Even though my Spanish is still hesitant, I have started to just blurt out what I want to say regardless and not worry so much about getting everything just right. This has resulted in enormously rewarding discussions with people from all walks of life. As I do this, I find I am understanding more and more and am constantly getting better.<br /><br />My words of encouragement to all: Just Say It. No fear! Do it and you will learn.Junehttp://june-elena.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-454038697295849752011-07-08T20:22:19.494-05:002011-07-08T20:22:19.494-05:00Alinde, thanks for the link. Marcus Santamaria'...Alinde, thanks for the link. Marcus Santamaria's approach looks like a good one -- he makes the patterns explicit and easy to remember, and it looks like he focuses on the most-used words.yucatangohttp://yucatango.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-22722461989631989452011-07-08T17:06:25.513-05:002011-07-08T17:06:25.513-05:00Sorry that my earlier post did not include a "...Sorry that my earlier post did not include a "clickable link." I hope this one does. I'm especially addressing Yucatango's post, about the charts.<br /><br />The site below does not present the charts themselves, but I have been reconstructing them, slowly, by his "sideways" method. I do believe this method enables those of us who may benefit from seeing similarities. In fact, I have to agree with the author, Marcus Santamaria, that this approach is a breakthrough, possibly (I believe) for those of us who are "visually oriented." <br /><br />(If the link is not clickable, just copy it into your browser, and try.)<br /><br /> (http://www.synergyspanishsystems.com/blog/turns-spanish-learning-upside-down/Alindehttp://lingobylingo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-16728140310919459342011-07-08T16:19:32.261-05:002011-07-08T16:19:32.261-05:00Paul, I can depend upon you for a different perspe...Paul, I can depend upon you for a different perspective. You make some very valid and interesting points...the benefits DO come with costs. I can no longer pretend in my neighborhood to not understand in order to avoid an unpleasant topic or time-wasting gossip. They've got my number. I recently enjoyed this article, and it makes me think of you:<br /><br />http://www.theonion.com/articles/openminded-man-grimly-realizes-how-much-life-hes-w,19273/?utm_source=recentnews<br /><br />Yucatango, I still have those charts in my mind, and you are right, it is a very easy way to organize, analzye and compare information. When I began studying Russian years after taking my first Spanish classes, I made charts and organized the Russian verbs in the same way, because the template is branded on my brain and it made it very, very easy to learn lots of regular verbs and even conjugate unknown new verbs with a fair level of success.<br /><br />I also agree with you Yucatango, about the quality of conversations with many locals here. Actually I have a post related to that topic that I have had, partially finished, in my drafts for months. Maybe this is a good time to dust that one off and post it.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-30596379735753859732011-07-08T15:13:34.854-05:002011-07-08T15:13:34.854-05:00Like Marc, I started learning Spanish back when th...Like Marc, I started learning Spanish back when there were grammar charts (1970s for me). The approach combined simple visual organizers (the charts) with memorization and, luckily for me, funny stories. <br /><br />Out of curiosity, I just searched Google for Spanish conjugation charts. I couldn't find any sites that use the charts I remember, which were 6 cells that focused on the verb endings alone. They made it easy to compare conjugations in different tenses.<br /><br />Instead, teachers (or at least their web sites) seem to be presenting long lists of fully conjugated verbs, or unformatted lists of endings that make it hard to see patterns. If this is how they're teaching Spanish these days, it must be frustrating to be a learner.<br /><br />Paul, I've found that conversations with Mexicans tend not to have as much mundane, ego-driven blather as US conversations can have.yucatangohttp://yucatango.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-25216668833379326512011-07-08T14:23:47.154-05:002011-07-08T14:23:47.154-05:00Well written and thought out, Marc. I would like ...Well written and thought out, Marc. I would like to offer a somewhat different view. <br /><br />One of the attractions of living as an expat outside the U.S., is not knowing fully the language. I have been freed from much of the mundane drivel that characterizes conversations, fantasies and facebook posts back in the States. So much delusion and melodrama.<br /><br />Mexico has similar melodrama, maybe even kicked up a notch or two; but my language barriers shield me from some of that nonsense. It is much easier to live like a hermit or monk on a silent retreat. <br /><br />My language skills enable me to take buses, ask questions, go to doctors, chat on a park bench with locals and enjoy friendships. Sometimes I plead an ignorance that isn't there just to shield myself from unwanted conversation topics. I have said that should I ever become truly fluent, it will be time to relocate to a place with a different language. I mean that.<br /><br />Having said that, more of my friends are locals than expats. But they are ones I have carefully selected and cultivated. Thinkers more than talkers.<br /><br />Fluency is a two sided coin. The benefits also come with a cost.<br /><br />I like living behind walls.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02079619549534119142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-23809305830056128372011-07-08T09:51:22.991-05:002011-07-08T09:51:22.991-05:00Myra, I guess it happens all over the world. Not s...Myra, I guess it happens all over the world. Not surprising.<br /><br />I just looked at your blog and signed up as a follower.<br /><br />Thanks for commenting.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-73421081103622134362011-07-08T09:42:06.947-05:002011-07-08T09:42:06.947-05:00It's the same in China: A huge amount of forei...It's the same in China: A huge amount of foreigners move there and never learn Chinese. Somehow they manage to get by! I'm glad I found your blog, its great! - Myra, http://interactiveexpat.blogspot.comMyra 米兰https://www.blogger.com/profile/08575766468578856122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-330045771114527252011-07-08T07:31:28.988-05:002011-07-08T07:31:28.988-05:00John and Alan...well there are some of those "...John and Alan...well there are some of those "other" types of expats out there. I get so frustrated or embarrassed by (and for) them that I am tempted to say things at times, but I just let it slide. I prefer to stay on the positive side, especially in the blog. <br /><br />Thanks for your continuing contributions to the blog dialog.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-32279231247211939872011-07-07T23:23:32.837-05:002011-07-07T23:23:32.837-05:00Marc, I would also like to thank you for the point...Marc, I would also like to thank you for the points that you make, but more so for the WAY in which you make them. I've felt that a few bloggers have approached this topic in a denigrating manner, labeling expats as arrogant, insensitive dolts who could not care less about respecting Yucatecans and their culture. You emphasize what one would miss by not learning to speak Spanish and forming relationships, which for me is the incentive I need to try my best. After all, we are not moving to Mexico because it's a cheap place to live, but for an opportunity to enjoy a rich cultural experience.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00954933541900671235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-17681790465606426482011-07-07T21:23:59.227-05:002011-07-07T21:23:59.227-05:00Joanne: Thanks for adding interesting information....Joanne: Thanks for adding interesting information. I am a creative type, but when I started studying Spanish in public schools more than 40 years ago, it was very structured: memorize conjugations, charts for endings, etc. I had to memorize those and learned to use them. I can still remember them and can recreate them from memory. So, I guess I had the best of both worlds, structure for the analytical side, and the more flexible creative side that I think, as you point out, often makes it easier to learn language.<br /><br />By the way, I do not consider myself fluent. I get into situations still when stuff goes right over my head, but I do not have any trouble most of the time. At this point I continue to slowly improve my Spanish, but I am not there at this point.<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to make such thoughtful comments.Marc Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289566244668566622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6277313567524932904.post-3578365901447738682011-07-07T20:06:21.495-05:002011-07-07T20:06:21.495-05:00There are two sorts of people - scientific analyti...There are two sorts of people - scientific analytical types and artistic creative types. The former have a more difficult time learning other languages. It requires a completely different approach. My husband is more artistic although he would not use that word to describe himself - I guess he would say he uses language and writing in his work. I had spent over 25 years working in a scientific field. <br /><br />We were in Spanish class and I was hopelessly lost in understanding verb conjugations. I still get lost with -ando -ado -iendo etc etc. I asked our teacher to make a chart for me because it was the only way I would ever understand it - give me math! graphs! chart it out for me! The teacher didn't have a hot clue what I meant. And then he would start talking about Past Progressive, Imperfect Progresive and I would tell him that I didn't know what that meant in English much less in Spanish. Needless to say I can't conjugate a verb to save my life but I blunder on and someday the light bulb may come on in my head. Meanwhile, I do nearly all my business in Spanish and never rely on an interpreter and do use local businesses. I had decided that for the doctor I needed one that could speak English as I didn't want to misunderstand something important. Turns out my doctor's English is decent but she also has language deficits, but between us we figure it out. So I guess we are somewhere in between - not fluent but not relying on English speaking Mexicans for our business and day-to-day needs. <br /><br />Now that I read that you are a former language teacher, I understand why you may have had an easier time becoming fluent. Eventually I will get there, but I think its going to take a different teacher with a different approach.<br /><br />While being immersed in the local action and being able to take care of our needs in Spanish is so important, I don't want to stop having interactions with other Canadians or Americans. Many of them are my friends and I'm not sure I want to go days without speaking English either.<br /><br />Thanks for your perspective, I enjoyed it.Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07676226128032255539noreply@blogger.com